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tv   [untitled]    July 4, 2011 11:31am-12:01pm EDT

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they say this is not a good war. and you should see everybody you should disapprove they have no idea about the hardships that we face . this is. the army. is the most precious thing in the world. uses of self-sacrifice and heroism. but you have to live a. real life stories from world war. nineteen forty five.
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with. a quick summary of the top headlines now nato says it's not going to build a joint system with russia doesn't find it necessary to provide moscow with legal guarantees the shield getting the country has plunges the deep into a stalemate. runs out of. pain over libya and germany u. turns on his policy all of staining from the. bailout to its war allies. in the war crimes court forcing the judge to enter a not guilty plea on his behalf faces charges including genocide in the balkans war at. the hague of one side it justice. well my colleague bill dog is here in half an
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hour's time but for now in cross talk people a bell and his guests discuss what the u.s. withdrawal might mean for the kurdish community in iraq and whether fears of separatism and ethnic clashes might persuade the americans to stay to stay with us . and. welcome to cross talk i'm peter lavelle as the u.s. starts its military withdrawal from iraq what does faith hold for the kurds is posting beijing arac administrative leave and democratically strong enough to keep the country intact and if the kurds strive towards an independent state what is stopping. you. crosstalk the fate of the kurds i'm joined by pressure was faisal law in washington
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he's an independent journalist in new york we cross to brendan o'leary he is the louder a professor of political science at the university of pennsylvania and his most recent book is how to get out of iraq with the integrity and in london we have sami ramadani he's a senior lecturer in sociology at london metropolitan university all right gentlemen this is crosstalk that means you can jump in anytime you want and i very much encourage it but first let's take a look at a report about the future facing the kurds following the u.s. withdrawal from iraq. eight years after the u.s. led invasion of iraq washington is negotiating its withdrawal from this war torn country is forty six thousand u.s. troops prepare to leave iraq is integrity and fragile democracy are threatened by the brewing animosity between arabs and kurds a factor that has made questionable the plan of a complete pullout i believe that we should take whatever steps are necessary to make sure that we protect whatever progress we have made there. largely
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marginalized by iraqi arabs the kurdish minority has long since been vying for a form of independence which given the sweep of the arab spring could now be more possible than ever and if established kurdish state who could potentially entailed the breakup of iraq as well as changing the border of neighboring syria turkey and iran all home to significant kurdish minorities no other place in iraq symbolizes the tensions separating baghdad and kurdish leaders more than the province of kirk a source of some twenty percent of iraq's oil reserves kirk has no official legal status iraqi arabs turkmens and kurds who claims to it under article one forty of the iraqi constitution the dispute over who is supposed to be resolved with a referendum we saw no reason why there should be any more. implementation of article one for three. i think when that happens. other nationalities living in those areas would have
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a better chance of. having a better security in those areas too because now it's like a gray area no one has full responsibility of doing what is best for the people however the vote has been continuously delayed due to political discord and violence in the region and to date neither arab nor kurdish leaders have been willing to yield their rights to the land currently and entire us division is deployed to for security in the disputed region and come december thirty first the . u.s. withdrawal could trigger a bloody conflict. in terms of security when the us leaves there will be no independent security force right now the security is from the kurdish side of the city this is the truth when the us leaves things will get worse there will be conflict arabs will stand up and pray to say with certainty and this will cause. wars that will begin between the ethnic groups. thank you very much whether or not
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washington decides to leave behind a contingent of u.s. troops in iraq the kurds have a historic opportunity in their trials towards some determination and nothing in their history suggests that they will be deterred from pursuing a bid for statehood. for crosstalk. ok pace wasn't in washington if i can go to you first here as we discerned that report given the circumstances of the withdrawal of the american withdrawal from iraq and what we call the arab spring here what is stopping the kurds from really going for an independent state something that they have strived for for a very long time now and the circumstances to do that are probably better now than ever before what's stopping them. thank you for giving the opportunity to be under show i think there are a of the reasons that stops the kurds from declaring an independent states economic
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and political geopolitical and and there's not there's not one single reason that says this is that they're wondering is and i think the invasion has helped the kurds have a better. foot step in the political spectrum of the middle east however it hasn't evolved into something that could be the seeds of a state and let's not forget that. the home inside of the kurdistan region is not yet suitable and ready for its statehood there is a spirit there is hope that is and work towards that. all the political pragmatists the leaders know that. declaring a state right now is not the ultimate. so lucian to the case that's why the clinching took baghdad that's why they're. the most
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active negotiators in settling issues that are. infesting baghdad in terms of political process and government formation and security so the kurds for now are considering themselves part of iraq but not for long let's let's speak up to the withdrawal of the of the u.s. forces when and if i can go to you i mean there's a nice saying the appetite comes with the eating and once the americans do leave to what degree i mean they're keeping something on the ground most likely irrespective what people white house says or the pentagon says but i mean there's a historic moment right here and we all know that iraq is in political deadlock right now the kurds are kingmakers and if this goes on for much longer the kurds will say you know go ahead guys i mean you figured out we've got oil we have we have unity for the most part in and the lands of the kurds i mean they have a lot of cards to play right now and i'd like to throw in the arab spring in the background about self-determination and and creating
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a better civil society they could they have a lot going for them go ahead. the kurdistan regional government is a very secure region it's the best organized part of iraq and it's very important to understand that the kurdish leadership is not planning a bid for independence even if it gets excellent opportunities and that's because kurds know historically that if they seek independence that would invite the negative intervention of the neighboring powers in particular turkey and iran by contrast at this moment the kurds have the ability to reshape iraq they more or less designed its constitution in conjunction with its partners so they have every opportunity to make their influence felt indeed with the departure of the americans they will be the only part of iraq that is reliably pro-american so i would expect them to use their leverage to ensure that there will be american troops patrolling the disputed territories they'll be working hard to ensure that their recent
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successful detente with the government of turkey continues and they continue to attract inward investment if the kurds were to take the risk of going for independence that might damage all of the successful inward investment they've made it would also mean that they'd have to devote almost the entirety of their resources to military means and then they don't want to do that they've come a long way in the last decade they don't want to lose the gains of that last decade sammy if i can go to you we heard the word leverage and i think that's probably the most important word when we look at the withdrawal of american troops i mean how much can the kurds get from baghdad ok i mean we they were everyone's watching each other across from the the the so-called border where the kurds the kurdish lands been relatively quiet could sit considering the violence since two thousand and three what can they get from baghdad and how resistance is bad baghdad going to be and when giving anything. well you say baghdad i mean the iraqi president to scare
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. representatives of the two leading care dish. governing party's leading polls including the foreign minister and so on so they have pretty substantial influence and baghdad and generally iraqi policies the major ones have been decided with the consent or support of the kurdish leadership over the past three it took union of kurdistan and the k d p the kurdistan democratic party. at this point i would like to take issue with one or two of the premises both in the introduction and maybe implicitly in what brendan was saying as if there is a kind of a new more city or a big historical clash between the care dish people and the arab people i think this is a myth we have had that oppressive regimes like saddam's regime attacking the care dish people but there hasn't been this historic people against people tensions or
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or quarrels or fights historically in iraq in fact very people a very few people seem to know that there are about ten million kurdish people in baghdad the capital this is more than more cares than cares in any kurdish area that is that is to. say i think i think you it is not some no no it is not nonsense to me because the kurdish people i work together to put a lid vise on the cards i know i know you would like you would like to divide the iraqi people like you're attempting just now but if you let me finish a lot of kurdish people out entitlement it with arabs with total commands and so on and there isn't this rigid ethnic demarcation like you might want to put it tend brendan historically the care of the shannara peoples. of common interests join struggles against. all right for democracy for freedom so the so you
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have to same time to look visit me but at the same time of the aspirations of the kurds have been always slowed down if not punished when they do have aspirations brendan you want to reply to that go ahead. i certainly do i think it's it is true that kurds and arabs contain large numbers of people willing to make iraq work as a federation but it is absolute nonsense to deny the historical animosities between arabs and kurds and to deny that successive arab regimes carried out genocide ethnic expulsion and coercive assimilation against large denied hours of. the recent south well. you mention the past and you know i did not do that i'd actually i let you speak i'd like you to get i'd like you to give me the opportunity to start i dismiss discouraged. i'm not distorting what you said i listened carefully . people think that sat down to really matter that there was
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a large will you let me finish will you that we let me finish please people think wrongly that there's a large kurdish population in baghdad there used to be the faily kurds were expelled from baghdad by saddam's regime if we look at both now kurdish parties in and in federal elections it is a minuscule vote surprise and i'm afraid i'm going to interrupt you will let you finish and we come back from the break in this after that short break we'll continue our discussion on the current state with r.t. . if you want. spending the year in iraq is not a true journalist i saw some of the ways to go or leave us contractors there's kind of wasting their time trying to get killed.
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i thought all lost the link to the police be it about five hundred miles it would take me about twenty seven days in new going to publicize it people invited the more i think oh please people started the bait of a dialogue just. chanting the slow the earth radio silence seems that it's. twenty years ago the largest country in the world to certain places of. the fleet which had been grown tremendously and each began a journey. where did it take to. download the
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official auntie application to go on the phone on called touch from the stall. lunch all teach life on the go. see video on demand qualities of mind bold costs and says feeds now in the palm of your. question on the dot com. please. please. please. please. welcome back to rostock i'm peter lavelle to remind you we're talking about the fate of the kurds as the year. supplants it's withdrawal from iraq. and you can . still say. ok brennan thank you to
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finish up what you were saying before the break here i mean there has been historically a lot of animosity i'd like you know what degree or another we can discuss in this program go right ahead. well what i think is important is to look forward and there are two core difficulties in relations between arabs and kurds as we go forward the first is that many arab politicians in baghdad wish to recentre lies iraq in particular the control over natural resources and that's in flat contradiction with the constitution of iraq of two thousand and five which was deliberately designed to ensure that each part of iraq arab provinces as well as kurdish majority areas could govern themselves and develop themselves if that program of the constitution is implemented i think all of the historical animosities between kurds and arabs can be calm and the second difficulty arises as as was indicated in your program in the areas of the disputed territories those territories are disputed precisely because of past programs of ethnic expulsion carried out largely by saddam's regime
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but also by previous arab governments not everything done bad by arabs historically was done by saddam or those who were involved as well so the key thing that international policy makers and domestic iraqi citizens have to be focused on is how to ensure those two particular disputes over natural resources and over the disputed territories don't generate further conflict between kurds and arabs i think that they're going to. be done is to or is to follow the constitution jump in the way developments is what is not only to not only not only to implement article one forty but to encourage proper power sharing arrangements with encourage governorate sharing arrangements that would include their narratives birds on the question all share power in this particular area all right sami real quick and then we're going to washington go ahead sure sure i think trend brendan again is pledging this caddish animosity better is no animosity between the kaddish an arab peoples that we've had that oppressive regimes specialist don't stand by the way
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let you be a better bet brendan's this regime killed more arabs than carrots fought. our information and the ninety ninety one uprising and in the chemical weapons and so on he's killed more arabs than kerry so to pretend that this was an arab book government just killing kurds as absolutely historically in court act applies to all is a sitting president president of the government some was denied us and reagan was denied this season was designed i don't know that i. mean here let me just say here let's go to washington go ahead throw in your two cents you're going to be very patient. i think i think it's not over inflated to mention the animosity among kurds and arabs and has occurred as i have lived in kurdistan during the invasion i have covered the invasion i have sensed those things myself
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that is a historical. even if you don't want to call it any more city disagreement at this liking. at least from the kurds to us the arabs and of course it's shared by the arabs in a great deal. but they both know the kurds and the arabs both know that they are forced to live in iraq the arabs claim that iraq is their. member of the arab league the kurds believe every individual of them believe that they are forced to be a part of that country and that has created any must be and it's very naive and simple to assume that just because regime like saddam's regime or any previous regimes have have have. caused destruction and killing of the kurds does not in the minds of the public. give.
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does not release the general arab population of iraq from those acts to people do not think that the those regimes were. abstract entities that came from the sky and did those i knew most people do believe. that i wrote so ok let's let's let's move forward to the end of this year brandon i'd like to go to you here do you see that there are elements in that within the pentagon and maybe even the white house and in baghdad that would use the excuse of possible tension between arabs and kurds to maine to maintain a an american presence a larger presence than what the americans agreed to a few years ago meaning we can't leave now because will be a civil war. i think it won't be an excuse i think there will be a strong request from the government of the kurdistan region together with some responsible arab politicians in baghdad for there to be a continuing arab and sari a continuing american presence mediating between the arab majority army in the
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south and the forces of the kurdish peshmerga in the north and i think that that will be essential to ensure that there's a stable resolution of the disputed territories if there's an american in a responsible american departure without the issue of the disputed territories having been resolved then there's a high likelihood of renewed conflict even if those responsible leadership on each side because actions on the ground in particular the actions of sunni arab insurgents might destabilize matters so there's a real risk and it were going to be an excuse the americans would be absolutely delighted to get completely out of iraq barack obama with a particular like it because it looked good for his election campaign so the idea that the americans are maneuvering in order to stay in iraq is simply misplaced there are so do things isley there is a serious dispute ahead all right it's going to lash out and i am going to go to washington. i think i think the left the
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leaving of the americans and keeping some forces in there to to to halt to put a put a stop to a civil war will repeat the same scenario of u.s. troops remaining in korea up to this day there's no there's not going to be an end to does. this bomb to explode this this disputed territories the article one hundred forty of the constitution having not been implemented the those territories have not the issues to their disagreements on those issues have not been resolved yet will only be delayed but not solved unless those. this article is implemented those territories will be returned to people who own the ownership there is no claim of those things and these things have not been happening due to political disagreement in baghdad and the arabs do not want this because they already have gained territory that there is very very clear things
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that we know that are done during saddam's time that can be resolved for example that town of. two which is a major kurdish town has been detached from kirkuk and next to to create which is a majority of the in province which is a majority arab province these shiftings and planes that saddam did have created those issues that need to be resolved because if cook is returned to the nine hundred fifty eight demography of whatever. administrative unit of co cook province at the time was things will change there will then be a majority arab in the province as it is now and therefore things will change if either for and them is held in the interest of another a totally different and i'm going to sami sami what business what business does the
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united states and its allies have in mediating this conflict between the kurds or potential conflict and you put it that way between the kurds and the arabs in iraq i mean is it is time for the united states and its allies to get out and let the people on the ground figure out what is best for them because occupation. genders animosity we've seen that in iraq we've seen that in afghanistan we're seeing it possibly in libya. i think the head to the nail on the head there most of iraq's problems today i'm in a tank from the continued occupation of iraq and the sooner the u.s. led forces leave back there with the tens of thousands of medicine aeris of blackwater and the like they brought with them they are the poison of in the middle of iraqi society and i think a lot of these problems can be resolved and i don't share the opinions of your other two guests with due respect to them that there is this enormous animosity between the arab people of iraq and the kurdish people and let me add this i have
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this particular moment declare my principle stand towards the kurdish people the kurdish people deserve the right to self-determination and this i believe in very very strongly this right to self dinner the nation cannot come under occupation it can only come within a democratic iraq where they care dish people will enjoy their right to self-determination this is something not even the kurdish leaders are daring to pronounce and to implement because that listening to washington that throwing all their eggs into the putting all their eggs in the washington basket instead of building. good relations with the peoples of the region with the people of turkey people of iran people of iraq against oppressive regimes the future of the kurdish people is with the peoples of the region you cannot move that the the mountains the great mountains of code to stand to washington the people of the region have to
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resolve their own problems without occupations of military interventions the united states is applying notice pressure on the iraqi government to maintain their forces by did made to visit american generals made statements u.s. defense secretary made a visit they are all trying to hide behind this week iraqi. regime tied to washington protected by washington that tried to hide behind it and say ask us to stay i'll just say this is what's happening. there and i think. in the last words this program here we've heard the term the arab spring is there such a thing as the kurds spring. there was a kind of there is no. there there is an arab spring and it's a very welcome there has been already a kurdish spring there is no occupation of the kurdistan region there are no american american soldiers present there any american presence on his
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administration is done by a kurdistan regional government there is there is corruption throughout our of iraq on a much greater scale than the kurdistan region i think what you possibly sammy unfortunately is old fashioned arab nationalists propaganda and what is vital to understand is that iraq has just gone through an absolutely terrific intra arab civil war that was not primarily caused by the american occupation it was cause i don't think this is just. been a very recent discussion where a certain amount of time or many thanks to my guest today in new york in washington and london and thanks to our viewers for watching us here are to see you next time and remember crosstalk.
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